Report on Fake Pandas
 

A couple of day ago, I posted that I had ordered a number of silver Pandas through Ebay at what was an unrealistically low price. In that post, I said that I hadn't yet received the Pandas but email communications from fellow Ebay menbers led me to believe that there was a high probability that the coins that I had bought were fake.

I received them today and would like to describe what came in. I've attached pictures.

The shipment was well packed, the best of any shipment that I've received from anyone, and I've received a ton. Inside, as a consulation prize I suppose, is a nice felt purse filled with almost perfect fakes of a 1896 Morgan, a 1910 Mexican silver peso, a 1906 Liberty silver dollar. a 1968 Mexican Olympic 25 peso coin, and a 1867 Hong Kong dollar. I conclude that the coins are fake not based on their appearance, which is perfect for well circulated coins, but on the weight, which averages 19 and change grams. The presence of the just described coins is a mystery because the won auctions had no mention of them.

The Pandas themselves are in hard coin holders but not also enclosed in soft holders like are all real Pandas that I have seen. Other than that, they are perfect and every bit as nice (visually) as real Pandas. I've attached pictures of the two sides and you will have to agree that these are perfect coins, at least based on their appearance.

Following are some measurements and weights. One of my my main hobbys is ultimate accuracy rifle shooting from 100 to 1,000 yards and I have accumulated some very accurate measuring devices necessary to the pursuit of this hobby.

Pandas are stated to have a diameter of 40.0MM, the coin in question came in at 39.86 MM; this is a little small but it's not too uncommon for coins to come in a few 1/1000's below published diameter. I have a Panda that is certain to be real that has a diameter of 39.98 MM.

Pandas are supposed to have a 1 troy oz weight of silver, the real Panda that I've taken out of it's soft case to measure has a weight of 31.14 grams. The fake Panda weighs 28.06 grams.

OK, so far we have a perfect appearence, a diameter that is a bit off to the short side but still possible and a suspiciously light weight. At this point you would be looking pretty hard at the coin but would stop short of a direct accusation of the seller. I took it one step further, I took a vice and a saw and cut the coin in half.

It is copper. There is a picture attached, sometimes the gold tint in a picture is an artifact of the lighting. Not here, the coin is copper. Maybe this isn't all bad, if copper keeps going up, maybe it will shortly be worth silver price

My quandry is easier than yours. I bought these through Ebay but paid by card, I won't pay for these. These are very good fakes, does it make you question any of your coins? You are certain of the person who you bought them from; what about their source? What will be the effect of large numbers of very high quality fakes flooding the market? What will happen when they start faking Englehard bars?

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Wow, that is amazing. Thanks for sharing. There is a lot of counterfeit things out of China. When I was there last year, you could buy almost anything that is counterfeited, everything from cartier watches, bags, anything brand name. It looks so real too with high quality.

Glad you found out though. That is why my husband wouldn't let me buy silver on Ebay, too big a risk to take.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

I take it you will not be posting any good feedback on ebay concerning the seller. Dose ebay have a system to report such fraud? Thank you for sharing this story and the warning.

By the way, this could happen to a buyer at a local dealer too.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Now you�ve done it. You got everyone on this forum cutting their Pandas in half.
Was this seller was located in China? If I bought anything from a Chinese seller I would be more surprised to find out it was real than a fake.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

By the way, the 2006 Pandas come in disks of 15. Plastic wrap seals around the rigid round holder. They don't come in sheets of 10 anymore, so don't think they're fake because of that. The ones I have weigh the right amount and have slips of paper from the mint.

Jennifer
www.discountsilverclub.com

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

If the seller is in China I would report them to Chinese authorities.

I can't imagine they would think very highly of this. They don't mind counterfeiting of other folks stuff, but they get pissed when it's their own.

LikeGreen :smokin:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Wow. That's scary.

TomD, you have done everyone here a great service. Kudos to you. All of us now need to spread the word far and wide - Caveat Emptor Pandas.

Ragnarok

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Caveat Emptor Ebay.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Good to know.

Excellent presentation TomD. Thanks for putting the time into it and sharing.

Prag

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

TomD,
Thanks for sharing this information with us.
Could you tell us what is the seller's username?
Has he/she already been banned from Ebay?
Do you know any fake gold panda on Ebay?

Thanks.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

^^^ :thumbs upWhat you said ^^^

Fakes showing up and it's not even anywhere near metal mania time. Yikes. :afraid:

Ragnarok

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

If you haven't yet reported this to EBay's Fraud Dept, get on it! And please tell us who the seller is.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

How much does the rigid round holder weigh?

Those of us with powder scales can weigh the Panda with the rigid round holder and check for proper weight. The 31.14 grams for the silver Panda calculates to 480.6 grains, 1 troy oz. is 480 grains. The copper Panda calculates to 432 grains.

We could easily see a 50 grain difference without taking the rigid holder apart.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Buy from a dealer and avoid the problems. Call Jennifer at Lone Star Silver Exchange. She posts here.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

It appears that the "1996" Panda cut up is not a counterfiet. The photo shows a Panda with cub facing to your right.

The real 1996 Panda coin does not have a cub and the Panda faces your left:

http://cgi.ebay.com/China-10-Yuan-1-...ayphotohosting

I was interested as I have bought the Mother and Cub combos of 04, 05, and 06. When I saw the photo in the thread above, I thought there was one I had missed so went checking on Google.

I have a $3 bill with Clinton's picture on it.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Everything Ive bought off ebay has been real..

Of course I dont buy anything off ebay anymore for the counterfeit aspect.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

first off I only buy from US, have bought canada, only with really high numbers and they must have at least 98% positive feedback.
Although with the info shown whos to say these people didn't buy it thinking it was real and then sold at a higher price. Guess I'mm keeping to dealers and shows now!!!!!

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

I've noticed on ebay.co.uk in the last few months that nearly half the so-called 'bullion' is crap from either China, Hong Kong or Taiwan. It is mostly obviously fake antiques, but a few coins have started drifting in.

Good job done there!

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Here is ebay on 1996 silver Panda coins:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...prclo=&saprchi=

Note that one of these is six coins, "Buy it now" for $1.76. Probably too good to be true!!!!!

Note: Some people will buy these and attempt to pass them. We need to look out for the other US coins in the sample set. Was there anything obviously different from the real McCoy on the US coin simulants?

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Check out this ebay auction, I'm the seller

http://cgi.ebay.com/L-K-ABSOLUTELY-F...QQcmdZViewItem

The seller to me was yifan6986

I would have never noticed that these coins were fake without warning from other ebayers. As the pictures indicate, the coins are flawless. I can side -by-side with a real Panda and can't tell anything. The weight is the only tip off, slightly more than 3 grams shy.

The hard case that I got weighs 6.78 grams, though how consistent that will be, I don't know. More problematic is the soft cover that most genuine Pandas come in, you would have to cut it up to weigh the bare coin.

BW3: Won't your powder scale do grains and grams? Most that I've seen will.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Some of us are still using our Herter's scale that we bought in 1960. The US did not speak metric 46 years ago. ( hope that did not give away my age... ha)

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

You can do charge back on your credit card, dont use paypal buyer credit, they stink, your own credit card company will back you up, pay pal wants bs documentation to make you give up. Secondly dont buy anything from the Chinese, Ive bought 4 things and alll were fake, the sellers dissapered after I filed complaints, all their coins are fake that I and many have bought. Also file complaint with ebay, this hurts their reputation and they will close the fraudelent account.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

BW3, My fake panda is too a counterfeit, how dare you accuse me of presenting a counterfeit counterfeit. :boxing: I followed your link and it was indeed a different coin design, maybe the proofs were different from UC. Maybe the coin that you found is a rare fake fake while mine is merely a single fake.

Follow this link to Panda America showing a 1996 Panda

http://www.pandaamerica.com/details....&grp=1&categ=1

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

I just stopped at the first picture I found. Are the common coins and proofs different designs for a single year issue? Never heard of this before.

On Edit: I did some searching on google and found that 1994 Pandas also have different designs for the 1 oz common and proof coins. I guess that means buy at your dealer and/or carry a scale with you.

What bothers me more is the potential for China to counterfeit the old US coins and start substituting their stuff for 1/2 of a bags contents and then resell the watered bag. How do we guard against buying a watered bag of junk (truely junk?)? How do you sell a bag in the future if watered bags are in circulation? Do the coin dealers have a machine to sort and count coins and also kick out the copper cores. I seem to remember that coin vending machines would not take the new clad coins when they first came out.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Here is a FAKE Lunar coin I purchased through Fleabuy (Ebay)
Attachment 13701
Here is the real thing
Attachment 13702
Size is exact but the weight is way off (in grams).
Attachment 13703Attachment 13704
Here they are side by side
Attachment 13705

Used Paypal so I got my Money back. The seller never returned my emails and insisted on me sending the thing back. I was under the impression from Paypal that the seller sincerely thought it was real. :dontknow:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

http://silver-eagle-coins.com/Images/1996PAN.jpg

Look at the font for the year, and the 'g' in Ag, I've noticed some of the fakes have a slightly different font, are there different quality fakes out there?

http://www.pandaamerica.com/upd_imag...05panda1oz.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imag...owu/222643.jpg

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

You guys better get your hacksaws out and check your "investments".:clap2:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Things have both volume and mass. Measuring, weighing and displacement are all you need to find out if something is real or not. And has been shown above, there are visual clues as well.

Do you have anything of value to offer in any of your posts?

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Well,... they can't. As you just illustrated, by taking accurate dimensions (+/- .001 inches using a caliper) and taking weight, it is not economicaly possible to accurately counterfeit a bar or a coin. The dimensions may come out right, but the weight will be way off.

What brand/model of digital scale are you using?

Re: F.....CK
 

Although I have only had one bad experience on ebay, and that was phonecards (�10 and I eventually got my money back and made a friend in the process! :-)) I would be wary of ANY seller who kept feedback private. Why would any decent reputable person with nothing to hide keep their feedback private???????? .............

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

As much as I hate to tell you, this seller has all the earmarks of the fake sellers. Check out this Ebay item # that he has listed: 8410676856. It is for 3 Pandas: 1983, 84, & 85; current bid is $7.00. No way, those coins, if real would be worth approaching $1,000. Consider your deal, there are around 32 troy oz in a kilo, the melt value alone would be near $416. If it is too good to be true-------

I predict that when your coin arrives it will be very pretty, of approximately correct dimensions published for the genuine coin and weighing 28 and change troy oz (somewhere just shy of 900 grams). Have you access to accurate gram scales? Looks like good scales will soon be necessary gear.

Why not do a little preemptive work. E-mail the seller and tell him that you've heard that there have been some problems with Ebay Pandas and let him know that you really hope that his coins are genuine but you intend to have the coin tested. Then ask if he has any comment.

How did you pay?

Good grief, this is incredibily corrosive to the trust necessary for free exchange.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Hi guys.
I was also bitten by the greed bug and lost better judgement on eBay , bidding on a no reserve lot of Silver Pandas. I won the auction with my original bid - never even came close to my max.
And so I grew suspicious and checked around.
Seems that fraudulent Silver Pandas are just rampant on eBay. I was able to find no less than 12 sellers who I believe are offering fake coins.
Some are obvious , due to the absence of the 10'yuan' character. The ones I saw , looked perfect. The seller had 100% positive feedback score - many left by active eBayers , and upon looking through THEIR feedbacks , active coin collectors. The seller had multiple auctions going. Had not changed name recenlty. Been a member for over a year. Responded politely and professionally to email inquiry. Nothing that would throw up a read flag , and in fact , perfect in every was according to eBay's own 'what to look for in a reliable seller' guidelines.
I bought the coins Friday. Got suspicious immediately. Found a few ongoing discussions on the eBay forums about fake Panda's and looked deeper into it. I scanned back through the seller's older auctions , and found the glaringly fake panda coins in his past sales.
I immediately notified eBay , Paypal and the seller that I wanted the transaction cancelled. Thankfully the seller had informed me that they would not ship until Monday , so they were never even sent. Paypal notified me today that the transaction was cancelled and my account reimbursed in full. Naturally , seller never replied. But what kills me is that eBay themselves never did. Seems they couldn't care less about this stuff. Others claim to have notified them more than once and had them 'wash theur hands'of the situation. Scary. Sad that there probably are some reputable Panda dealers on eBay , but I sincerely doubt I'll ever go that route again.
Sad also is that even if someone steps in to stop this , enough fakes are being sold , that it ain't gonna go away that quickly. Many of these buyers will be reselling these fakes , either unaware that they are fakes , or unfortunately , in some cases , probably , well aware of it, well into the future.
The longer it goes on obviously the worse it will continue to get.
Panda collecting looks to become the wild wild west maybe.
And yes , the seller was in China. Just to give you an idea , my seller had completed over 130 transactions already - most of them- sales of Pandas. Even experienced buyers have to saw these things in half to see the difference? Oh Boy. The third point to make is that the more and more and more of these that are out there , and undistinguishable to most buyers , the will keep circulating , and dilute the market potential for these coins.
I'm guessing all Panda's will need to be sent for grading/certification in the years ahead , no?
In the future , I'll use eBay to buy solme books and stuff. Not pandas, and that's unfortunate for the ethical sellers and dealers.
Appreciate any thoughts or insights from y'all.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

And I got crap for calling eBay a cesspool the other day.

Hmm. I withdraw my retraction!


EBay has shown time and time again it wants nothing to do with dealing with fakes, and prefers to sweep it under the rug.

LikeGreen :smokin:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Assuming using only one substitute metal.. but I guess someone enterprising enough could create a bar to match the weight of something like silver... maybe not gold though since its so much heavier.

example: create a bar whose inner core is steel (lighter than silver) coat that with a thick layer of lead (heavier than silver) and finally plate the bar with real silver (thin layer). IF you did this right, I imagine you could make bars that are the right size and the right weight

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Welcome aboard. I could tell those pandas were junk. I saw those things a long time ago. It is a shame e-bay won't clean up their act.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

I wouldn't give this guy a dime for his 'trouble'

And I would report him to the authorities immediately.


He ripped you off and now he's playing you for a fool with the "me velly solly" act.

Chinese businessmen are very shrewd. He knows exactly what he's doing.

LG :smokin:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Good grief. Amber, with all due respect, are you nuts?

Call Jennifer at lonestarsilver.com. You may pay a little more in premium than on ebay, but maybe not, and you get what you pay for.

There is a ton of fake silver and gold on ebay now.

Why do you even want to dip your toe into that cesspool of fakery?

LikeGreen :smokin:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Hey, check this thread from Ebay/community/discussion boards/paper moner & coins. Following is a copy and past of the lead post-----

Poster is "justineone1"

Chinese Silver Bullion Bars

I am creating this discussion topic because of recent expeirence with Chinese Silver Bullion on ebay. The silver bullion bars my partner and I recieved from china tested as 90% lead and 10% other metals (NO SILVER). Beware of these auctions and don't expect to receive silver bars.


TomD again: If they want to counterfeit, it wouldn't be that hard to convincingly fake. Molybdenum with a specific gravity at 10.2 is almost right on silver at 10.4. So a silver plated molybdenum bar would be almost spot on with the weight. Here I paste from another site "Molybdenum is a metallic, silvery-white element". You wouldn't be able to tell by looking if you drilled it. Then you would have to assay everything at every transaction, that would really kill things.


On edit-- Good grief Amber, I wouldn't order a Panda from a Chinese dealer for all the tea in China. I highly recommend an American dealer.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

I wouldn't touch a thing on Ebay. Go to a reputable dealer or take the chance of getting screwed for a few cents. Makes no sense to me.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Brilliant....btw..better check out the shipping charges. good luck:afraid:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

They have tons of manufacturing capacity, and a business environment that absolutely encourages piracy.

Why the mystery?

Though I have heard they get a little pissed when the piracy is of their own home-grown stuff.

Search for Abercrombie and Fitch on EBay. You will see tons and tons of people selling 'A&F' stuff for prices below, or depending on if it's a hot, hard to find item (the 'Candace' jacket from this winter) at a fat premium.

Now you tell me: Is Abercrombie authorizing Jackie from Missoula to be mail-ordrer retailing their stuff on EBay? It's a joke.

Go on the wholesale auction sites. You will find tons and tons of guys from China selling pallettes of whatever - A&F, 'Coach' bags, etc., etc. You will even find people on EBay drop shipping bulk orders from these same chinese vendors.

I'm telling you guys, you think I'm harsh, but I bailed on the whole idea of selling on ebay. The razor thin margins settled for by the shut-ins and chronically unemployed, coupled with the stolen and pirated merchandise make it a brutal and, in my 'trying to be honest and build my karma' eyes, unethical marketplace.

And to the degree it is honest, I feel EBay itself encourages such unethical/illegal behavior, and I want nothing to do with supporting them.

Sorry for the rant. There are so many honest retailers trying to do a good job, like Jennifer, that it seems silly to risk a ripoff to save a small % by going to ebay.

Now if you want to sell some silver at super-premiums to the overly-enthusiastic there, be my guest. But just be real careful in what you buy.

Regards,

LikeGreen :smokin:

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

Using the values you provide, how much each would a 10 oz bar and a 100 oz bar weigh made in .999 silver and .999 molybdenum as measured in grams? Are the differences in weight easily discernable using +/- .10 gram accurate scales? I don't yet know how to make the conversion. I can handle the math; I don't know the units.

Addendum:
.4 troy oz = 12.4grams; .2troy oz = 6.2grams; therefore a good scale should indicate the difference between a silver and molybdenum bar. Right? (Assuming the bars are accurately made.)

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

NO, the right question should be, if a 100 ozt molybdnum bar is cast what are the dimension differences from a 100 ozt silver bar. The answer is, the dimensions would be about 1.006 times the dimensions of a silver bar. If the bar is not a perfect rectangular shape, a trapozedial shape, it would be almost impossible to measure the dimensional variance.

Re: Report on Fake Pandas
 

A really good point. Thank you.

All the more reason for me to buy bars no larger than 10 oz and 90% silver halves. They are less economical to counterfeit, and therefore, less likely to be counterfeit.

What happens to molybdenum when its dipped into tarnish remover? I don't think molyB tarnishes; does it?